Is Anything Real?

[00:05.9]
Marketing has a long history of believing that if you throw enough glitter, celebrities, and spectacle at people, they'll buy. But what if all the flash actually hides the thing that really drives long-term sales? What if the soul of a brand matters more than the shine? Today's guest has spent decades studying that exact question.

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Welcome back to "Is Anything Real?", the show where we separate the signal from the circus and talk frankly about what still works in marketing and what belongs in the museum. I'm Adam W. Barney, founder of Scale Smarter, author of Make Your Own Glass Half Full and longtime believer that clarity beats complexity every single time.

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Today we're going deep: purpose, psychology, tribe building the soul of a brand, with someone who's lived and shaped multiple eras of advertising. Steve Biegel, founder of the Dreamboat Group. He has a long and distinguished career that covers places like Ogilvy, he's award-winning, and he's actually writing a book right now on purpose-driven marketing and branding.

[01:07.2]
Get ready for a masterclass in long-term brand thinking. Steve, welcome. Thank you so much. How are you? I'm great. Glad to have you here. Steve, you once said the soul of a brand is its reason for being. How does that idea fit into a marketing world obsessed with flash and short-term performance metrics?

[01:29.0]
Well, yeah, I mean, flash, and it's all about short term metrics right now in the industry basically. And brands need to understand that it's like dating. Would you rather have a long-lasting relationship with a consumer or would you rather be on Tinder and have a one-night stand?

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I mean that's, to put it mildly, that's really what it is. And I think brands need to foment long-term relationships based on transparency, trust, and value. There needs to be mutual value for both the brand and the consumer.

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And when that happens, you have a great relationship that could, you know, inevitably be very profitable for your brand. Now I know, Steve, you've also lived through traditional advertising, digital, and now this wild social era that we're in right now.

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How from your perspective has the word "purpose" changed or has it stayed the same? Purpose has changed slightly. But there wasn't any depth to it back then. Now there's a little bit more depth to it.

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And that's what I talk about in the book that I'm writing right now. A lot of companies unfortunately, still just slap on a purpose label, and they say something really shallow like helping the world become a better place or something.

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Just that doesn't have any teeth or any meaning to it, but the brands that really get it, embrace purpose and actually live it and not just slap it on a label and just say we're a purpose-driven brand and there are differences. And then I guess on the flip side of it, Steve, I'd be curious to understand, you know, what's the biggest misunderstanding that maybe consumers have about purpose-driven brands today.

[03:18.5]
Do they, you know, believe it's all fluff? Do they think it's not real? Does it actually convert? Well, here's the deal. Consumers today, with the technology that we now have at our hands 24/7, can find out if a brand is fluffing it.

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They can certainly tell you know, if a brand isn't living by what it says in a, you know, if a brand claims to be a purpose-driven brand, for instance, and claims to do wonderful things for the environment, and the CEO of that brand takes his private jet to play a round of golf on a Sunday afternoon and then comes back, they'll find out online, they'll find out, and when they do, they'll drag the company, and the brand, and the CEO on social media, and they won't have any of that.

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So people, consumers still are very leery of brand speak and brand promises. But when they start seeing the brand actually living what they preach, they let their guard down, and they want to embrace the brand and live their identity with the brand and it becomes a real simpatico relationship.

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Right, right, right. And I mean, I think, both of us, Steve, probably love a nice fluffed-up pillow when we lay down in bed at night. But purpose isn't just a tagline. It's actually a compass for consumers, I would say. It is a compass. It is a compass, and a compass is really based on action, not just words.

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Words are important, but they're meaningless unless action backs them up. And that's what consumers really look for. And with the technology, like I said, brands could be found out. It used to be where brands could say whatever they want and a consumer would have no recourse to challenge their statements because it was a one-way communication.

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It was brand speaking to consumer. The consumer had no way to talk back to the brand or challenge the brand. But now with technology, the conversation takes place. It's very open, and brands have to understand that and embrace that they will be challenged.

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Yet, so many of them make mistakes. Right, right. And I'd love then to, sort of jump into today's big talk topic, which, you know, I look at that as flashy campaigns, celebrity endorsements, and the glitter playbook. Do you think those tactics actually move long-term sales or are they just short-term attention-grabbers?

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You know, a lot of that takes place on the Super Bowl, for instance. Right. Everybody wants to have their celebrity, and there is a place for it if that celebrity works with the concept, with the idea. But when there are celebrities just tacked on at the end, without an idea, those don't really work.

[06:17.1]
They gain attention. They'll get some quick attention, but they will not have value down the road. However, the brands that use a celebrity in a conceptual way for their brand, where it fits into the storyline, fits into the ethos of the company, that can have value.

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And you know, we see brands who do it really well and we see many more who don't. So, I hate to give an answer like this, but it's the truth. It depends. It depends on how you use flash and that celebrity.

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Right. And that's the difference between building an attention spike and actual, true deep brand building. Maybe dig a little deep in here. You know, you've got decades of case studies, I imagine you can rely upon here. But what's one example where the flash actually worked, maybe even unexpectedly, and one where it completely backfired?

[07:16.7]
Sure. So one, just off the top of my head, that worked was American Express with Jerry Seinfeld. And what was cool about that, and I was working at Ogilvy at that time when that campaign was created and produced, is that, you know, they wrote the spots together, meaning Jerry sat with the creatives and actually wrote the spots together.

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And so the ideas were perfectly, you know, congruent to what Jerry was all about, and the personality that he wanted to portray. And they worked really, really well. They won a lot of awards.

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They helped the brand lift for American Express considerably. I could tell you one, which backfired completely, which wasn't too long ago, but I think it was Pepsi who used one of the Kardashians right after that issue with the gentleman who was, I think he was actually killed by the police, and there was a protest, and they used a Kardashian with a can of Pepsi to sort of help the protesters calm down, and so it was totally fake.

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It was totally a farce, and people see right through that. And that was a huge fail for Pepsi. So it can work with a celebrity if you use it in the right way, and it can absolutely lead to total online dragging if you fail.

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Andmthat Kardashian moment for Pepsi will go down in history as one of the biggest celeb endorsement failures of all time. No doubt. I have to even wonder, Steve, you know, is that one of those examples where they were just simply trying to steal attention?

[09:23.3]
Yeah. It pays off on this idea the faster you try to steal attention, or the more you try to steal attention, rather, the faster that it slips through your fingers, it disappears, or even hurts. I believe it's hurtful. I mean, they tried to attach themselves to this unique moment in culture, and by embracing the wrong storyline and the wrong celebrity, they ended up really getting hammered.

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And, you know, they quickly said, we have to attach ourselves to this moment. And they, I don't think that they really, really thought it through. And that's what hurt them. You know, if they would have taken the time, like in the other case that I gave you, where Ogilvy and Jerry Seinfeld sort of teamed up and took the time to figure out the messaging and the scenes, and every nuance of the campaign, it wouldn't have happened like that.

[10:26.2]
But a lot of brands right now were just about, you know, doing something quickly in the moment just to get noticed. Right, right. That, ties, I think, really deeply into your Think > Say > Do framework. Right.

[10:41.4]
That works in that realm of behavioral economics, cultural insight. How do you envision brands should use this today, especially in such a noisy ad and just general world that we live in? Well, I think brands have a tremendous opportunity these days. Brands have an opportunity to add meaning to themselves and to the world, meaning they can elevate the world by taking part in positive causes.

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And this world needs a lot of repair. You know what I'm saying, Adam? And the government's not going to do it, so we should stop depending on the government to find real solutions. Brands have a unique opportunity because they have the money behind them, they can get the people behind them, and they can help create an atmosphere where, consumers and brands merge together and help causes.

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So when I talk about Think > Say > Do, it's first, a brand needs to think, what can I do to help the world? And they have to put some thought into it, and it has to be sound reasoning based on what their products are or what their services are.

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It needs to really be on point. Then they have to say what they're doing, meaning they put a stake in the ground and they say, we're not going to stand for this anymore. We have to act differently and do differently.

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And that's how they rally their consumers, which turn into tribes if they really believe what the brand is saying, and they advocate for this new cause. So it's Think > Say. And then lastly, a brand needs to Do the things that they say.

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So they need to create the product that will bring about some of that positive change. They need to live within their corporate, corporate rules, or like the example I mentioned to you about the jet, they can't talk about the environment and then do the opposite and pollute the environment.

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So you need to Think, you need to put your stake in the ground and Say, and then a brand needs to Do. And when you take those three steps, the consumer will want to join your brand, and they will end up advocating for you, and they will end up defending you.

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Right? And they will be with you long term because now you two are together, and they'll wear your brand logos, they'll be proud. And what's better than that, right? I mean, I love how you talk about tribe building, right?

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That human need to belong to clubs that reflect who we want to be. And I can see how that fits into advertising in 2026 and beyond. What would you say? What are the 5% of brands that will truly win in that realm in the next decade? What are they going to be doing differently, or what are they already doing differently actually right now, today?

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They're being transparent, number one, and they're letting, they're letting the consumers in on some of the thinking. Everlane is a company that that told their consumer how much the material costs that goes into their clothing.

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So they let them know exactly how much it costs to make this article of clothing, and how much percentage of profit we're going to take by selling it. Consumers love that. They love being in on the know, and they appreciate that.

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Other brands, you know, they participate, they have to be truthful. You cannot hoodwink any consumer anymore. And they need to be purposeful. Brands need to do something that brings value to the consumer.

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And what I mean by that, it's that, the consumer can Identify themselves through the brand. If a brand stands for something. Take Allbirds, the sneakers that are made with natural materials.

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So if somebody wants to identify as somebody who cares about the world or the environment, and they want to signal that to other people, their friends, or family, or whomever, they do it through the Allbirds brand by purchasing their shoes and by wearing them.

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So now everything is aligned and the consumers get, the consumer gets their identity through the brand. And those are things that are being done now that weren't done. Back then, back a while ago, a logo meant you wear an expensive article of clothing, and all it did was said that you're rich, and that's why people did it.

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It's a little bit different now. It's a little bit deeper. That was superficial, but it was real. And now it's what can I do to make the world better, to repair the world? And if I associate this with brand X, I can do it.

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Brand Y, I can't. I'm going with brand X. Yep. So let's say, for brand Y, you handed them a $10 million dollar budget, right. And say they're a newer brand.

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What's the first dollar you'd spend there, out of that $10 million? I'd figure out a way to create something that can do something wonderful for the world. Okay, so if I'm a clothing brand, I will try and find materials that don't harm the world, don't pollute, or something like that.

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If I'm an auto brand, I will make sure that the materials that I use in the seats or the metal that I use, something has to be good. We can create things with today's technology that do not harm the world in any way.

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It's there, the technology is there. So the first thing I would do is I would, I would find a way to create something that has a benefit to the end user physically. And then I would tell that story and take a stand and tell the world why and tell people why it's so important.

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So again it goes back to Think > Say > Do. I would think of something interesting and elevating. I would take a stand, and I would articulate that in an interesting way that makes a consumer believe what I'm saying, wants to rally around what I'm saying and then wants to advocate for what I'm saying.

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And then I'm just going to do it. I would roll it all out, and I would have the consumer join me as we roll it out. And it becomes a lot bigger than just a company that's selling something for a quick buck. And I would form lasting relationships with consumers that become tribes.

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I know it sounds really simple, but it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that. There are a lot more steps. I articulate it in a fun way in the book that I'm writing right now. And, yeah, the way to do it this day and age.

[18:28.3]
I've done it in the past. I've worked on Fortune 500 companies. And, I pretty much understand how it goes right now. One of the brands that really impacted me when I was at Ogilvy.

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I worked on this gigantic insurance company. And the insurance company's main message was: Be careful. Watch out what you do. Don't take too many chances. And we found a way to reframe that entire industry, and especially this company, by twisting it and turning it around completely and by saying, guess what?

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Nothing great happens in the world unless you take a risk. Go ahead and take a risk, because if you don't, everything stays the same. And, we put that campaign out, and it was really a passion of mine, and it really worked.

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It not only did it sell insurance policies for the company, but it impacted people's lives tremendously, where they were taking risks that they didn't do before. And, when I heard about it, and I got the feedback from the client from their consumers, I knew that that's the way to motivate a consumer, to elevate a consumer and to gain a tribe of consumers for my brand.

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Right. I love it. Let's back up a little bit, just as we sort of work towards close here, Steve. Imagine if the legends of advertising, you know, Bernbach, Ogilvy, Reeves, were alive today. What would they say about TikTok ads, AI-generated campaigns, and the obsession with going viral?

[20:23.6]
You know what they would say? They would say, bring it on. They would say bring it on, because all it is is a change in media. But if the message is on point, if it's entertaining, if it's elevated in a way that your consumer will want to join with the brand, they'll say, bring it on.

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And they'll do great. They would do great work in TikTok, or great work on YouTube, or wherever the medium leads you. Because it's not about that. I mean, there are great people that I list in the book.

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Somebody like Howard Gossage, who was in San Francisco in the 1960s. He was the one who created interactive advertising. That didn't happen from digital. He did it with print. So he would put out a print ad, and he would have a puzzle in it, or a contest in it, and he would motivate the consumer after reading his ad to send it back, cut it out, and send it back for a chance to win a prize.

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And so consumers interacted with this brand through print. Okay, this was like 30, 40 years before digital advertising even began. So, you know, they would embrace it, in short, they would embrace it, and they would do wonders with it.

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I love it. I mean, that's timeless to think about here, right? Of what every marketer today should try and be relearning in this world that we're in today. Steve, this was unreal. You know, depth, history, psychology, purpose. And a much-needed reminder that the biggest question in advertising isn't "Did it go viral?" "Does it matter?".

[22:15.1]
Where can listeners find you, find the upcoming book, follow your work, and stay tuned in your realm of conscious-driven marketing? Oh, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can go to my website, stevebiegel.com. That's B -I-E-G-E-L dot com.

[22:34.7]
They can visit Dreamboat Group at our website and send me a note, send me a question, anything you like. I love meeting people and talking about the craft of advertising. Where it's been, where it is, and where it's going.

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Fantastic. And everyone should be able to find those links in the bottom of the show description. Here's the truth, though, from our conversation today. Paid advertising can ignite awareness, but only brand soul sustains that belief. Flashes, they burn bright, but purpose burns long.

[23:11.3]
Steve, thanks for joining today. You're quite welcome. Thanks so much for having me, Adam. All right, thanks everyone for tuning in to "Is Anything Real?". If this gave you something real to chew on, share it, drop a review, and join us next time as we keep pulling apart what's real and what's just noise.

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And until next time, plug in, power up and keep your brand human. Thanks again, Steve. Quite welcome.